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Secondary clutch

15K views 43 replies 7 participants last post by  Rangerwhit 
#1 ·
You can check the clutch operation while in neutral correct? Primary closes and belt rides up fine, secondary won't open at all when at any rpm. A load shouldn't be needed? I can push primary in some by hand, but nothing gives when I try to spread secondary. Time to pull it I suppose? Am thinking that swim and shameful walk is still biting me. Thanks all!
 
#2 · (Edited)
Load does affect the secondary but only in the rate of opening and closing, not whether it opens or closes. In neutral there is essentially no load so the secondary should open and close in response to RPM and it's effect on the primary.

So, time to pull the secondary, disassemble it and find out where the problem is. Dirt, corrosion, wear, broken parts are all possibilities which could lead to binding.

One thing I don't understand about your post is how the belt could be riding up the primary if the secondary isn't opening. The belt won't stretch that much and is a finite and definite length. Where is the "slack" (not the best term) coming from to allow the belt to ride up in the primary? Bad bearing in the transmission? Broken connection between transmission and chassis or engine (mounts)? Something has to be giving for the belt to be able to climb the primary sheaves without moving the secondary sheaves apart.
 
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#3 ·
Got the secondary off and something is rattling around on the inside. Cant really see anything on mine (classic) till I get that snap ring off. Saw a you tube video on how you can twist this one and clamp it to get the snap ring off. Got to that point and a tip broke on my small ring pliers. Going to try and get some the appropriate size today.

Hey pyro, It is going up on the primary, but probably not as far as normal. Secondary doesn't budge. My first cvt. I will check for any other play that I hope won't be there. I would hope the belt would slip before it could cause more damage. Havn't pushed it real hard though.
 
#4 ·
The Lisle 49200 snap ring pliers were 36 bucks at the twilight zone store.. Came back and ordered them for 16 on ebay. Will be a while for an update on the secondary. Am looking for a good vice and started another thread if anyone has a suggestion. Thanks!
 
#5 ·
Alright, have the bugger in my new vice, snap ring off and nothing budges twisted or not. Going to read the manual again to make sure everything is done right. Any one had experience with the classic driven? On this one, it is fully enclosed on the other side, so I can't see what is going on. PB blaster maybe? Is it going to explode when it breaks loose? Thanks all in advance!
 

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#7 ·
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#9 ·
So I need to find a way to control the helix when I start hitting it. Are they all designed the same way? The only video I found was twisting one sheave to release the force. Going to pb it and put my safety glasses on when I start banging on it. Got to find my c-clamps now. Wish me luck and don't tell the bride I have her hand towel in the vise.:devilish:
 
#12 ·
It looks like the old style I had on the sleds but Parts fish shows that maybe the spring is just sitting between the helix and the sheave and not pegged. Back In the day I could just press down on the helix with a little twist, undo the snap ring and ease it apart, but was much younger, had more spring twist then compression, either way I doubt it will send it flying.
 
#13 ·
I'm almost certain it will spring upward. You can make a tool with some backyard engineering. A piece of 1/2" threaded rod through the hole the transmission shaft normally goes in, and a couple pieces of 1/8" steel with some drilled holes for the threaded rod, a couple of washers and nuts and you have a backyard spring compressor good enough to work for one job. It's not like you're doing this for a living. IF you want something better and have a welder making a good one shouldn't be that difficult.

You might try some mild heat with the PB Blaster. A heat gun on high will be about right. Aluminum expands significantly when heated. The expansion will allow the penetrant to get where it needs to be and open clearances to help the parts slide apart.

If you don't have a heat gun HF has one for about $15 (less 20% with a coupon) that works well and should be adequate for the job. I've used this same heat gun to remove paint from plaster wills and it did so with ease with no damage to the walls.
 
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#15 ·
Whit, there is a torsion spring in there. You'll have side load pressure on the splines also. Mark your sheaves before taking it apart.
 
#16 ·
Let it soak overnight and put more on this AM. Rapped it lightly with a regular hammer quite a bit and rubber mallet broke it loose. Marked it up before I took off the clip and noted the spring tab locations also. Buttons are toast and ramp has grooves from the screws holding buttons on. One screw had lost the head and worked itself out. Thanks all for the input. I'm cursed with being to careful and second guessing, so you all make it easier on me. New ramp and buttons?
 

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#17 ·
Yes, looks like a new helix and buttons should be all you need. Even if the spring isn't broke, good idea to replace that too while you are at it.
 
#18 ·
That looks almost exactly like the clutch I mentioned I worked on for the Pioneer.

It looks like the bushing in the second photo is cracked.

Did you take note of which holes the spring was in when you disassembled it? If not maybe your service manual will provide that into.
 
#19 ·
Good eye Pyro. I looked at the diagram and it shows the the crack, so I assume it should be there. Also that screw didn't work out it broke off. Glad I have the extractor set I bought for the "broken zerk" that was a roll pin. Thanks for the input fellas!
 
#20 ·
While she's already apart this far, pull the primary cover, belt and spring. Slide the movable sheave in and check for excessive play on the wieghts and pins. With age and use they tend to wear out. Letting the weights swing out and tear the spider up.

If you want to add a little pep in its step, primary spring 7041132 will give it a little more zip.
 
#24 ·
Helicoil comes with a special tap and a drill. You enlarge the original hole with the damaged threads using the drill included in the Helicoil kit, then use the special Helicoil tap to rethread the hole and then screw the Helicoil into the newly threaded hole. Helicoils are made of stainless steel and are tempered so they have spring tension to hold them in place. In addition you can carefully peen the circumference of the hole around the Helicoil using a center punch to prevent it from backing out next time you remove the fastener.

Re: Removal of the broken screw-

On various occasions I've use methods other than screw extractors to remove broken screws. In truth I avoid screw extractors if at all possible. One of the main problems with screw extractors (aside from the problem of drilling on center) is that 99% of them are tapered and when the enter the broken part apply outward pressure on the threads on the hole increasing friction and making the broken part more difficult to remove. There are straight flute, non tapered screw extractors and some sets even come with drill guides. They have splines which cut grooves into the broken screw which decreases outward pressure, but there is one problem common to all screw extractors; they are by necessity made of hard steel much like a tap, which also makes them brittle and easy to break and once broken difficult to drill out and remove before continuing with the original problem.

Spline Screw extractor set: (I am not recommending this particular set. It is a knockoff of an expensive USA made set and I know nothing about the quality of this set)
https://www.amazon.com/Neiko-04200A-Drive-Guides-Extractor/dp/B006YDQ812/ref=pd_day0_hl_469_4/136-4587704-9658913?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B006YDQ812&pd_rd_r=c6949605-7ab0-11e9-ab53-6922a0711ce1&pd_rd_w=6502j&pd_rd_wg=wT04F&pf_rd_p=ad07871c-e646-4161-82c7-5ed0d4c85b07&pf_rd_r=VKQC07V8V9A2KGMFBYQA&psc=1&refRID=VKQC07V8V9A2KGMFBYQA
One advantage of a set like this, or any other straight flute type, is that works on right and left hand threads.

Method #1- Take a nut of the appropriate size and place it over the broken screw. Use a MIG welder to weld the nut to the screw through the hole in the nut. Then use the nut as if it were the head of the screw and screw the broken piece out. This method works very well becasue welding also heats the broken screw and releases any corrosion that might be holding it in. (Small screws such as this one may not have room for this method)

Method #2- Heat the area around the broken screw and use your favorite rust buster on it. You may even try heating it a couple of times adding rust juice each time. Such heating will help the juice get down into the threads. At this point I've used a hard pointed end of a scribe on the circumference of the broken screw to try to turn it out. Once the broken screw has been backed out enough you can grab it with needle nose pliers and back it out thee rest of the way.

Method #3- Similar to the above but instead of a scribe a sharp prick punch is used along with a tiny hammer to tap the broken screw in the counter clockwise direction (for right hand threads)

Method #4- I've used a Dremel tool and a tiny cut off blade to cut a groove in the broken screw and used a Keystone (slotted type) screwdriver to simply unscrew the broken screw.

Method #5- This one requires some special equipment that many people don't have, a lathe and a fractional and number drill set.

If the broken screw sits above the surrounding surface even a tiny bit, in the lathe I'll turn a piece of steel large enough to fit around the broken screw while resting on the surrounding surface and through drill the center of that piece of steel for a drill bit that I intend to use to drill out the body of the broken screw. The drill chosen should be as close as possible to the minor thread diameter (found in handbooks) of the broken screw. Then I counter bore about 1/8" deep to the outer diameter of the broken screw. The whole affair ends up being about an inch or so long. In effect I've made a drill guide which if used carefully will assure that the drill is centered on the broken screw so the surrounding metal will not be damaged. The end of the drill guide with the larger hole is placed over the protruding broken end of the screw and held there tightly by any method possible. Use the minor diameter sized drill to peck drill (preferably in a drill press or vertical mill) through the guide to the bottom end of the broken screw. What is left is a tiny ribbon of thread from the broken screw in the threads of the parent material. At this point you can pick the end of the "thread ribbon" out with a scribe, grab it with needle nose pliers and pull it out of the hole with no damage to the original threads.
 
#26 · (Edited)
Just ordered this set. For the no1 extractor it says use a 5/64 bit, which should work. the straight flutes appear to be much larger and call for 9/64 but also labeled as no1. Will use a sharp tip punch to mark as close to center as I can. Waiting on ebay for extractors and 2wheelpros for clutch parts. $83 with shipping. Was pondering a t10 for extraction again. Stay tuned and thanks again.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Irwin-Hans...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

Edit: And that broken screw had gotten wedged between helix and sheave as the marks show. For future reference.
 

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#29 ·
A drill stop is basically a hardened bushing that one can buy and use without using the screw to attach to the drill bit. The fact that its hardened can help in keeping the drill from wandering if snug on the bit.
Stripping of oil and dust of both surfaces is pretty important to make the bond as good as possible. A sharp rap with a hammer will more than likely easily remove your drill guide and removing of any adhesive can be ground off.
 
#30 ·
A drill stop is basically a hardened bushing that one can buy and use without using the screw to attach to the drill bit. The fact that its hardened can help in keeping the drill from wandering if snug on the bit.
I knew what a drill stop is, I didn't understand your intended use. If the screw is broken off flush or below the surface a drill stop used as your suggest would be a good idea. One with a hole smaller than the diameter of the broken screw could be centered by eye and glued as you suggest to the surrounding surface and a hole drilled into the broke screw without hitting the surrounding material or damaging the threads in that material.

If the broken screw is proud of the surface fitting the drill stop around the broken screw would force you to use a drill that is at least as large as the screw in order for the bit to fit the hole in the drill stop. That would be fine if the intent is to drill out the broken screw, and surrounding threads and add a Helicoil later or tap the resulting hole for a larger screw. Drilling a hole smaller than the broken screw would not be possible becasue the hole in the stop would have to be large enough to fit around the protruding broken screw. I guess you could take a smaller drill stop and try to counter bore it with a drill the same size as the protruding broken screw and accomplish roughly the same outcome as my lathe made bushing, provided the drill stop is soft enough to drill the counter bore, or you happen to have a carbide drill the right size.

All in all, your suggestion, for someone without a lathe, I like it!!!.
 
#31 ·
Was looking at the sheave again noticed the wear on ramps leading to the buttons. The new buttons should take all the force from the helix and this damage won't effect wear on the new ones? Ordered a new helix because of the troughs the screw heads wore into it. Second pic of the broken screw problem child. Thanks!
 

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#34 ·
Some vendors are just really slow. I ordered some wood stove cement 5 days ago and was notified it was just shipped yesterday and won't be here until the first week of June. Most be coming Pony Express. It really doesn't matter, burning season is over here and I already did my chimney sweep work and only need to seal up a couple of places on the stove that are easy to access. I saved a couple bucks on the cement buying it from this place but could ahve had it 3 days ago if I spend $3 more and got it from Amazon.

I've come to expect USPS shipping problems where I live. USPS doesn't deliver to my house but to my rural box a mile down the road. If it doesn't fit in the box I get a notice and have to go to the Post Office to pick it up and if I get the notice on a Saturday I can't get my stuff until Monday. UPS is good but Fed Ex, not so much. They don't seem to be able to even find my house about 50% of the time.

As time goes on and more young irresponsible millineal workers enter the "work" force I only expect it to get worse.
 
#35 ·
Wish I would have known about the stove cement. I used to refurbish a couple pellet stoves a year to pay for my fuel as well as get stock photos for when I moderated the pellet forum. Could have had couple tubes for free. Just finished doing a gas stove refurb-refinish for my folks as they are no longer humping wood or corn fuels. Nice little Harman with lots of gold trim. Still having to heat here but corn finally is emerging
 
#36 · (Edited)
That is a very kind offer. What I paid for the stove cement with free shipping is probably about what it would have cost to have you ship some to me. I do appreciate the sentiment though. Very thoughtful!

We're in the low 80's here in the mountains at 3700 feet. Down in nearby Candler it's about 5 or 6 degrees warmer and farmers are harvesting their first hay of the year. I saw tomato fields being prepared the other day as well, plowed, stakes in the furrows. Lots of other farming activity as well. Meanwhile I have to weed eat the slopes around the house every couple of weeks becasue things are growing like it was summer. We had above average rain this past winter and I guess the results are showing up now.
 
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